Philo kept Pentecost in the 4th month which proves Lunar Sabbaths.

4th Month YHWH's Calendar July 2011-2012

Sunday, July 31, 2011

Examining the Count to Pentecost During the Exodus

 

 

 

 

 

This graphic has been modified from the original to demonstrate whether the Count to Pentecost should be considered during the Exodus scenario. Due to the lack of clear instruction in Exodus 12 thru Exodus 19 and the arrival of the Israelites at Mt Sinai, it appears the count to Pentecost should not even be considered in this scenario.

NOTE: This chart has been revised, due to additional insights into the chronology. Factors which prompt revision are: (1) There are no instructions in Exodus for a wave sheaf at or during the exodus; (2) The crops were all destroyed before the exodus, including the barley, so there was no wave sheaf available to wave; (3) Passover and ULB were apparently the only feasts set to be observed during the 40 years in the wilderness; (4) all other feasts have the instruction, "when you come into the land which IAUA will give to you," and "which thou has sown in the field." (5) Since they entered the promised land in the 1st month of the 41st year from leaving Egypt, the Israelites would have to have planted spring wheat (110-120 days to maturity) in the spring of the year they entered Canaan. It would have been the only wheat harvest available in the 1st year in the promised land. Harvest of that spring wheat would have come at the end of the 4th month. (6) There would have been no winter wheat, which has to be planted in the fall, in order to harvest sometime around early June, early in the 3rd biblical month.

Click on the image a couple of times to get to largest image.

http://yahwehstruelunarsabbathcalendar.blogspot.com/2011/07/examining-count-to-pentecost-during.html

What is the True Count to Pentecost?

3rd Month Sivan YHWH's Calendar June-July 2011-2012

This calendar was revised on Jun 28 2011 to show 30 days in the 3rd month. Although Pentecost has been studied and found to be in the 4th month, it is left in place here in the traditionally understood date.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

NOTE: Pentecost is shown on the traditional Jewish Calendar date of Sivan 9 (sunset June 10 to sunset June 11), without including man-made Judaic POSTPONEMENTS. Pentecost timing is still under consideration by this author, as there exists the possibility that Pentecost occurs in the 4th month during harvest. Scriptural and logical arguments are made on both sides. Study of Pentecost still under review.

http://yahwehstruelunarsabbathcalendar.blogspot.com/2011/06/3rd-month-sivan-yhwhs-calendar-june.html

Count TO PENTECOST

Created by pastorbuddy on 3/10/2009

how to count

Count TO PENTECOST     Here are some of my notes on what the Scripture teaches is the true count to Pentecost which is 50 days “after” the 7th Sabbath, not 50 days after the wave sheaf or 1st Sabbath (Lev-23:16 “Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the YHWH”   If you have Questions and wish to talk on the phone, let me know and I will call you, I have free calling. I have not found ANY evidence to support the traditional 3rd month Pentecost but below is an abundance of evidence that conclusively proves a later Pentecost. “INTRODUCTION” If someone wanted to argue Pentecost in the third month, would it be asking too much for them to produce ONE scripture supporting a wheat harvest in the 3rd month “springtime”??? After all that is what Pentecost is, first fruits of the wheat harvest. Leviticus 23:16 can be understood two ways, the traditional way is to count 50 days from the wave sheaf of the barley harvest, and another way it can be understood is to count 50 days from the morrow “after” the seventh Sabbath which would be 101 days counting the two New moon days which are not counted when counting out the 7 Sabbaths complete because the New moons are not complete Sabbaths/intermissions, but they are still “worship” days of no buying or selling. To prove which understanding is correct, we must turn to nature and other Scripture other than the one in question. We know that Pentecost has to do with the wheat harvest and I contended there is no conclusive Winter wheat harvest mentioned in the Scripture, if someone can find a Winter wheat harvest in scriptures then there is at least a 50-50 chance that the 50 days after the wave sheaf could possibly be right, otherwise it is not even an option. The reason I say 50-50 chance is because we definitely have a conclusive pinpointed “summer” wheat harvest in the 4th month, which is found over and over throughout the Scriptures and therefore it could be understood either way is someone can find a Winter wheat harvest and then they could argue it was 50 days after the barley sheaf/Winter wheat harvest, and we could argue that it is 50 days after the seventh Sabbath complete, which would be a summer wheat harvest. In other words if someone can produce scripture for harvesting wheat in the spring, instead of summer, then it could go either way but until someone finds a conclusive Winter wheat harvest it is not even an option. We must prove what the Scripture in Leviticus 23:16 is speaking of. Now if they were no summer wheat harvest found in Scripture and you had plenty of Winter wheat harvests found in Scripture, then the obvious understanding would be to count 50 days after the barley wave sheaf for the winter wheat harvest. Simple. On the other hand if there is no Winter wheat harvest mentioned in Scripture, (and there’s not) then the obvious conclusion is to begin the 50 day count from the morrow after the seventh Sabbath complete and then bring the new meat offering from the summer wheat, the only wheat spoken of in scriptures. Simple Below you will read many Scripture which will harmonize with counting 50 days “after” the seventh Sabbath, not the wave sheaf, such as when Aaron made proclamation of a Pilgrim feast/CHAG which was 50 days after the seventh Sabbath complete and the only Pilgrim Feast this could be is Pentecost because it is in the fourth month when Aaron proclaimed this. There is no CHAG found in the 3rd month for the traditional Pentecost. Until someone can produce a Scripture showing that there is another Winter wheat harvest to choose from, found in Scripture of course, I see no room to debate it any other way. I know that Winter wheat is now harvested in the springtime after spring barley harvest, but did ancient Israel plant Winter wheat or only summer wheat?? All Scriptures that I have found is referring to “summer” wheat. It would be nice to have an “example” of Winter wheat in Scripture if I was going to of count 50 days after the barley wave sheaf and then bring a first fruit from the winter wheat, but since there isn’t any the conclusion is obvious. We can prove many wheat harvests in the “summer”, throughout the Scriptures, but is there one shred of evidence for a wheat harvest in the “spring”? The answer is no, so there is no Scriptural wheat harvest in the spring, so it must be understood that Pentecost is counted from the morrow “after” the seventh Sabbath/intermission, instead of from the wave sheaf it’s self. All the males were commanded to appear before YHWH three times in the year, these three feasts centered around the three major harvests. The first one is Unleavened Bread/barley harvest, which takes place in the “springtime”, or Spring feast, then the second one takes place in the “summer”, at the summer wheat harvest called Pentecost or summer harvest, the first fruits of the summer wheat harvest is offered, not Winter wheat which is harvested in the “spring”, two weeks after the barley, and is still in the spring season. Every where in Scripture and history from Josephus and Philo who lived at the time of these harvest, wheat was always a summer harvest. Study these EXAMPLES closely. #1. In the book of Josephus it tells how that it was “Summer” time when the fruit of the land being almost ripe enough for reaping that Samson set fire to the fruit of the land i.e. “wheat” and grapes etc. and in the book of Judges it plainly tells that it was in the time of wheat harvest when Samson done this. Read the following from Josephus and the book of Judges. CHAPTER 8 CONCERNING THE FORTITUDE OF SAMSON, AND WHAT MISCHIEFS HE BROUGHT UPON THE PHILISTINES . 7. (295) At this injurious treatment Samson was so provoked that he resolved to punish all the Philistines, as well as her; so it being then “summer” time, and the fruits of the land being almost ripe enough for reaping, he caught three hundred foxes, and joining lighted torches to their tails, he sent them into the fields of the Philistines, by which means the fruits of the fields perished. In the book of Judges Chapter 15:5 it says: “1But it came to pass within a while after, in the “time” of “wheat” harvest that Samson visited his wife with a kid; and he said, I will go in to my wife into the chamber. But her father would not suffer him to go in. 2And her father said, I verily thought that thou hadst utterly hated her; therefore I gave her to thy companion: is not her younger sister fairer than she? take her, I pray thee, instead of her. 3And Samson said concerning them, Now shall I be more blameless than the Philistines, though I do them a displeasure. 4And Samson went and caught three hundred foxes, and took firebrands, and turned tail to tail, and put a firebrand in the midst between two tails. 5And when he had set the brands on fire, he let them go into the standing “corn” of the Philistines, and burnt up both the shocks, and also the standing “corn”, with the ”vineyards and “olives”. In other words the time of wheat harvest is in the summer, NOT spring. This proves that this wheat harvest is speaking of “summer” wheat harvest and not spring harvest of winter wheat. Josephus knew enough about how many foxes etc. because he knew the Scriptures, wonder why he didn’t know that the wheat harvest was in the spring instead of summer? Or maybe he knew that wheat harvest in his time was in the Summer and not Spring. You Judge and remember the people knew about farming in those days, and to say whether he was a Pharisee or Sadducee makes no difference concerning the harvest and nature. The following quote from Josephus also proves the wheat was Summer wheat and not Winter wheat 1. (323) In the meantime Herod’s affairs in Judea were in an ill state. He had left his brother Joseph with full power, but had charged him to make no attempts against Antigonus till his return;for that Macheras would not be such an assistant as he could depend on, as it appeared by what he had done already; but as soon as Joseph heard that his brother was at a very great distance, he neglected the charge he had received, and marched towards Jericho with five cohorts, which Macheras sent with him. This movement was intended for seizing on the corn, as it was now in the midst of “summer;” Notice the last verse of this quote. This is found in Josephus under: THE DEATH OF JOSEPH [HEROD’S BROTHER], WHICH HAD BEEN SIGNIFIED TO HEROD IN DREAMS. HOW HEROD WAS PRESERVED TWICE, AFTER A WONDERFUL MANNER. HE CUTS OFF THE HEAD OF PAPPUS WHO WAS THE MURDERER OF HIS BROTHER, AND SENDS THAT HEAD TO [HIS OTHER BROTHER] PHERORAS, AND IN NO LONG TIME HE BESIEGES JERUSALEM, AND MARRIES MARIAMNE

This next quote which lists the 4 seasons, proves they were known back then:
“And in addition to the four elements the seasons of the year are also four, which are the “causes” of the “generation” of animals and “plants”, the year being divided into the quadruple division of winter, and “spring”, and “summer”, and “autumn”.
XVII. (53) The aforesaid number therefore being accounted worthy”

Notice he says these four seasons Winter, and Spring, and Summer, and Autumn, are cause of the generation of animals and “plants”
In other words you have three harvest feasts each year, barley in the spring, wheat in the summer, and the annual fruits of the trees etc. in the autumn.
I have heard the argument that all harvest was Summer time, but that is not acceptable because Josephus says, “And in addition to the four elements the seasons of the year are also four, which are the “causes” of the “generation” of animals and “plants”, the year being divided into the quadruple division of winter, and “spring”, and “summer”, and “autumn”.

Bottom line is someone should have a Scripture or some kind of proof that there is a spring wheat harvest instead of a summer wheat harvest to support their 50 day count after the wave sheaf instead of 50 days after the seventh Sabbath complete for Pentecost.
I can give many Scriptures and history from people that lived at this time that there is a summer wheat harvest which would have to be 50 days after the seventh Sabbath instead of 50 days after the first Sabbath.
50 days after the first Sabbath can only produce a spring wheat harvest and 50 days after the seventh Sabbath can only produce a summer wheat harvest. Which one does the Scripture teach? We know what tradition of men teaches.

It says in the book of Nehemiah Chapter 13:15:
In those days saw I in Judah some treading “wine presses” on the sabbath, and bringing in “sheaves”, and lading asses; as also wine, grapes, and figs, and all manner of burdens, which they brought into Jerusalem on the sabbath day: and I testified against them in the day wherein they sold victuals.
Nehemiah saw men treading grapes in these wine presses and the grapes are not ripe until summer and the sheaves they were bringing in had to be summer sheaves. The Winter wheat is gone by this time and so was springtime.

Our Saviour indicates that after four months comes the harvest. The summer wheat matures in four months. It is sown in the first month Abib/spring and is reaped in the fourth month/summer which is seven sabbaths plus 50 days and you can bring a first fruit from it/summer fruit. This is why the hail did not destroy the wheat in Egypt because it had not come up yet because it was planted in the first month. In John 4: 35 it says:

“say not ye ., there are yet four months then cometh the harvest”

Winter wheat is at least 6 or 7 months to harvest and not for months to harvest as our Saviour said it was.
When Aaron used the word CHAG, which is only used for Pilgrim feast, it was in the Summer time and it was 50 days after the seventh Sabbath. It was also the same day that the Law was given on Mount Sinai. Ex-32:5 and Ex-31:18

Philo says that the harvest comes after the grapes are ripe and the grapes are not ripe until summer. He also tells of some men that was keeping a prelude or for feast of the greatest feast i.e. Pentecost, 50 days after the wave sheaf. That means that the morrow after the 7th Sabbath is NOT Pentecost, but the start of the 50 day count to Pentecost.

He also says that wheat was the last of all” the grains that are sowed in the field to ripen and come to harvest. This was Pentecost wheat that he was referring to, and it has to be summer wheat to ripen last, after winter wheat. Philo SPECIAL LAWS, 11 (186)

The wheat harvest and Tabernacles are to be observed at the years end/turning (Ex34:22) and that does not happened until June 21. ( after the traditional Pentecost} In other words you have a turning March 21 and then keep Passover, in the Spring and you have another turning June 21st and you keep Pentecost, in the Summer and then you have another turning September 21 in the days of Tabernacles, in the Fall. If you try to keep the traditional Pentecost in the third month/June 6, it is not at the years end or turning, which happens on June 21. and is not in harmony with Torah Law.
When they came into the land they were to reap the harvest thereof/barley, wave sheaf, count seven sabbaths/intermissions complete, number 50 days, then bring a new meat offering from “their” labors that “they” sowed in the field i.e. wheat.
In other words if they sowed the summer wheat in the first month when they came into the land they could reap a harvest for a first fruit 50 days after the seventh Sabbath from their labors which they sowed in the field, but NOT in 50 days from the time they sowed, for nature will not allow the wheat to mature in 50 days. Ex-23:16
There is so much proof supporting the count should began 50 days after the seventh Sabbath instead of 50 days after the first Sabbath.
Bottom line is, can anyone locate a “spring” wheat harvest for a 3rd month Pentecost? If not, maybe it is not there and is only a tradition of men.

Here are a few Scriptures to support the summer fruit/wheat harvest:

Proverbs 10:5

“5He that gathereth in SUMMER is a wise son: but he that sleepeth in “HARVEST” is a son that causeth shame.”

Notice summer and harvest is synonymous.

Proverbs 26:1

“1As snow in “Summer”, and as rain in “Harvest”, so honour is not seemly for a fool.”

Again summer and harvest is synonymous.

Isaiah 16:9

“9Therefore I will bewail with the weeping of Jazer the vine of Sibmah: I will water thee with my tears, O Heshbon, and Elealeh: for the shouting for thy “SUMMER” fruits and for thy HARVEST is fallen (some of harvest not spring harvest). 10And gladness is taken away, and joy out of the plentiful field;and in the VINEYARDS there shall be no singing, neither shall there be shouting: the treaders shall tread out no WINE in their presses; I have made their vintage shouting to cease.”

Notice here the summer fruits of the harvest AND the wine are connected.

Isaiah 17: 5-6
“5And it shall be as when the HARVESTMAN gathereth the corn, and reapeth the ears with his arm; and it shall be as he that gathereth ears in the VALLEY of Rephaim.
6Yet “Gleaning Grapes” shall be left in IT (Valley), as the shaking of an olive tree, two or three berries in the top of the uppermost bough, four or five in the outmost fruitful branches thereof, saith YHWH the Mighty One of Israel”.

Notice here, the harvest men gather the wheat in the Valley and what’s left of the grapes they left in the Valley which proves the grapes were ripe before the harvest as Philo says; they just didn’t go back and GLEAN them.

Isaiah 18:4-6

4For so the MASTER said unto me, I will take my “rest”, and I will consider in my dwelling place like a clear heat upon herbs, and like a cloud of dew in the “heat of harvest.” 5For “afore” the harvest, when the bud is perfect and the sour grape is” ripening” in the flower,

The Tanach reads, ” for the said YHWH to me: I will be at ease and I will look after my place of Foundation; like crisp warmth after the rain, like a mist in the “heat” of the harvest. For “before” “the” harvest, when the flower is finished and the bud turns to “grapes approaching ripeness,”

Notice here that this is speaking of a summer wheat harvest and says “before” the harvest the grapes are approaching ripeness”. The Grapes Are Not Approaching Ripeness in the springtime.
The phrase “THE harvest” not a harvest of wheat seems to imply that there was only one major wheat harvest and that was in the summer which rules out any possibility of counting only one day after the seventh Sabbath complete.

“6They shall be left together unto the fowls of the mountains, and to the beasts of the earth: and the fowls shall” “Summer” upon them, and all the beasts of the earth shall winter upon them. 7In that time shall “the present” be brought unto YHWH of hosts of a people scattered and peeled, and from a people terrible from their beginning hitherto; a nation meted out and trodden under foot, whose land the rivers have spoiled, to the place of the name YHWH of hosts, the mount Zion”.

I believe “the present” that is spoken of here is the first fruit of the summer wheat harvest because it shows that the present/first fruit is brought during the summer. The above and nature demands an understanding of Leviticus 23:16 to mean 50 days after the seventh Sabbath complete.

Jeremiah 8: 20
“20The harvest is past, the “summer” is ended, and we are not saved.”

This verse shows that the harvest was in the summer NOT “Spring” because it does not say the harvest is past and spring is ended. Proven once again it is a summer harvest not Spring harvest.

Jeremiah 40: 10 -12
“10As for me, behold, I will dwell at Mizpah to serve the Chaldeans, which will come unto us: but ye, gather ye “WINE”, and SUMMER FRUIT, and oil, and put them in your vessels, and dwell in your cities that ye have taken. 11Likewise when all the Jews that were in Moab, and among the Ammonites, and in Edom, and that were in all the countries, heard that the king of Babylon had left a remnant of Judah, and that he had set over them Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan; 12Even all the Jews returned out of all places whither they were driven, and came to the land of Judah, to Gedaliah, unto Mizpah, and gathered WINE AND SUMMER FRUITS VERY MUCH.”

Notice the wine/grapes and the summer fruit/wheat is in the summer time and not the springtime. By the way in Jeremiah 39:2 it explains that this was in the fourth month when the people harvested these crops.

Jeremiah 48: 32
“32O vine of Sibmah, I will weep for thee with the weeping of Jazer: thy plants are gone over the sea, they reach even to the sea of Jazer: the spoiler is fallen upon thy “SUMMER” fruits and upon thy “Vintage”. 33And joy and gladness is taken from the plentiful field, and from the land”

Once again s summer fruit and grapes together.

Daniel 2:35
“35Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the SUMMER THRESHINGFLOORS; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them:

Notice it does not say “SPRING THRESHINGFLOORS”

Amos 8: 1-5
“1Thus hath YHWH thy Mighty One showed unto me: and behold a basket of “SUMMER FRUIT”. 2And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said YHWH unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more. 3And the songs of the temple shall be howlings in that day, saith YHWH thy Mighty One: there shall be many dead bodies in every place; they shall cast them forth with silence.
4Hear this, O ye that swallow up the needy, even to make the poor of the land to fail, 5Saying, When will the new moon be gone, that we may sell corn? and the sabbath, that we may set forth WHEAT, making the ephah small, and the shekel great, and falsifying the balances by deceit”?

Notice here the summer fruit is referring to the wheat. He will return and gather the wheat into the barn on Pentecost.

Micah 7:1
“1Woe is me! for I am as when they have gathered the SUMMER FRUITS, as the GRAPEGLEANINGS of the vintage: there is no cluster to eat: my soul desired the FIRSTRIPE FRUIT.

The first fruit here is referring to summer fruits or summer first fruits.

Nature proves Pentecost IN THE FOURTH MONTH.

On the day of Pentecost when they were being accused of being drunk with “new” wine, which is not found in the third month for the traditional Pentecost, Peter said “this is that, which was spoken by the prophet Joel” and when you look at what the prophet Joel said, you will see where he said that “the floors would be full of wheat and the fats full of “wine”, Once again there is no new wine in the third month to fulfill this prophecy, therefore it had to have been a 4th month Pentecost because it is agriculturally “IMPOSIBLE” for the Fats to be full of wine in the 3rd month. This is an absolute, and this alone proves Pentecost in the fourth month, which is 50 days “after” the seventh Sabbath complete. Leviticus 23:16

Here is the Prophecy found in the 2nd ch. of Joel.
24And the floors shall be full of “wheat”, and the “vats shall overflow with wine” and oil. 25And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpillar, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you. 26And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name YHWH your MIGHTY One, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed. 27And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am YHWH your Mighty One, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of YHWH come. 32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name YHWH shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance.
Notice the prophecy was for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at a prosperous time when the floors would be full wheat and the wine presses full of wine and there’s no wine in the fats in the third month, this also is an absolute. The wheat AND wine were part of this prophecy, after all it was Pentecost when this prophecy was fulfilled in the book of Acts, 2nd ch. Says,

1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one – place…….

13Others mocking said, these men are full of “new wine”.
14But Peter , standing up with the eleven , lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem , be this known unto you, and hearken to my words :
15For these are not “drunken”, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17And it shall come to pass in the last days”

My main point is there is posivetily no new wine in the third month, so Joel’s prophecy had to be referring to the fourth month and furthermore, there are NO scriptures that will support new wine as being last year’s wine or any other than the definition found in Strong’s,

G1098
ãëå?êïò
gleukos
glyoo’-kos
Akin to G1099; sweet wine, that is, (properly) must (fresh juice), but used of the more saccharine (and therefore highly inebriating) fermented wine:—new wine.

The only new wine found in Scripture whether fermented are not, is wine that is still in the cluster or in the fats/wine presses or as our Savior refers to as not been put in the new bottles yet, and if it is put in old bottles it will burst them. This is much like the winter wheat which cannot be found in Scripture, neither can new wine be found as wine that came out of the old store or last year’s wine because by then it is not new wine and does not fit the definition found in Scripture.
There is no New wine (sweet wine) in the third moon (grapes were not ripe yet) but were at the end of the fourth moon
The prophet Joel could have said, the floors shall be full of wheat and left out about the winepresses being full of wine on this day, but He did not because it is true.

“THE APOSTLE PAUL GOES BEYOND 50 DAYS TO KEEP PENTECOST IN JERUSALEM”

I have shown were the apostle Paul kept Pentecost in Jerusalem and it was longer than 50 days from unleavened bread, to the time he arrived in Jerusalem which is a living example where someone kept Pentecost and it was beyond 50 days of the wave sheaf,

I have shown were the apostle Paul kept Pentecost in Jerusalem and it was longer than 50 days from unleavened bread, to the time he arrived in Jerusalem which is a living example where someone kept Pentecost and it was beyond 50 days of the wave sheaf,
I have also shown where the Law was given to Moses 50 days after the seventh Sabbath. I have showed many things which support beginning the count 50 days “after” the seventh Sabbath, but have not seen one thing to support counting the 50 days from the wave sheaf. Now we do believe we are to count seven intermissions/Sabbaths from the wave sheaf, but days are not even mentioned until after the seventh Sabbaths, and then they are 50 of them to be numbered.

Am I missing something?

Brother Arnold

“DEBATE”

Originally posted by Brother Arnold:
Brother Chuck, I listed six reasons from Scripture why I believe that the 50 days are numbered from the morrow “after” the seventh Sabbath complete. I am still waiting for “one” reason from Scripture why you believe Leviticus 23:16 should be interpreted to number 50 days from the week of unleavened bread, is that asking too much? I await your answer.

Response by Brother Chuck,
I have already answered at least 10 times or more. I don’t believe it needs to be INTERPRETED; i’m going by what it plainly says. And you’re not interpreting it either – you’re flatout CHANGING what it says to the exact opposite.
RESPONSE by Brother Arnold,

Chuck, I don’t think I am making myself clear, please forgive me, what I am trying to say is, not counting yours or my interpretation of Leviticus 23:16, I would like to see some evidence that would support as to why 50 days should be counted from the unleavened bread instead of the morrow after the seventh Sabbath complete. Let’s not use the Scripture that is in question but find another Scripture that will support our interpretation of Lev-23:16.

Example, I believe the Scriptures I quoted prove that the wheat harvest was after the grapes were ripe and there is no denying it from the examples I gave from Scripture and Philo.
As of now I don’t believe that there are any scripture where any wheat harvest took place “before” the grapes were ripe in the fourth month which would help supports your tradition of counting 50 days from the wave sheaf instead of 50 days after the 7th Sabbath. As I have stated in other forms, even Philo, who I believe knew something about farming in those days, said that the harvest came “AFTER” the grapes were ripe. Those are his exact words.

Now I have listed six references from Scriptures why Leviticus 22:16 should be understood to count 50 days “after” the seventh Sabbath. Now I would like for someone to list ONE Scripture to support the interpretation of Leviticus 23:16 as meaning 50 days “after” unleavened bread instead of 50 days “after” the seventh Sabbath. END
#2. The ONLY wheat harvest Recorded in Scripture, is in the “summer” after the grapes are ripe, which is impossible for grapes to be ripe in the spring or the third month. Therefore if there is no recorded wheat harvest before the grapes are ripe, then Leviticus 23:16 must be understood as to begin to number the 50 days “AFTER” the seventh Sabbath complete, there is no room left to debate it.

chunks response, The only archangels recorded in Scripture are Michael, Gabriel, & Heylel, but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t others, so your statement proves nothing. Scripture only refers to the seasons as “summer” and “winter”, and all the harvests are in “summer”, which includes what we would call “spring” and “early fall”. The plain statement of Lev.23:15 proves that there was a harvest in the 3rd month, which is “spring” to us, but “summer” in Scripture.
RESPONSE; if these are the only archangels mentioned in Scripture, then who are we to say that there are more or who are we to say they are not more? The same is true with the wheat harvest, and besides, the grapes must be ripe during a Scriptural wheat harvest, no matter what you call the Season and this is IMPOSSIBLE in the third month.
We must not add to his words or take away from them.
If we only speak where the Scriptures speak and be silent when it is silent, we won’t get into these embarrassing situations. END
Arnold’s quote
#3. All Scriptural wheat was planted in the first month and harvested in the fourth month, which is in perfect harmony with what our Saviour said in the book of John “say not ye there are yet four months “then” cometh harvest”…

Chuck response, “I did a search on “first month” and “fourth month”, and can find no mention of planting or harvesting. The fact that Scripture doesn’t say it in those exact words doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, or that it did.”

RESPONSE; that’s right Chuck, but we have proven examples where there was a wheat harvest in the fourth month and none in the third month. We also have a CHAG proclaimed by Aaron in the fourth month END

Since we don’t know what time of year Yahshua made His statement, we have no definite starting point for counting the “four months”.
RESPONSE; correction Chuck, we do have a starting point in the second chapter of John verse 23, where it says that He was in Jerusalem at the feast of “Passover”/first month and you can read from their to the woman at the well and where he made the statement. END
“Here’s what your count would look like, 1 – 3 – - – 7 and here’s what YHWH’s count looks like, 1 – - 4 – - 7 see how smooth it is with no bumps and skips, compared to man’s tradition.
His feast is held three times in the year, spring, summer, and fall. Not “spring”, “spring”, and fall.
Chunks reply,
The above has 3 parts:
1. Simple answer: Aaron lied. (as i have previously posted)
2. The “1-3—7″ makes more sense, since Pentecost is the Feast of “Firstfruits” (not “middle fruits”), and therefore would be expected to be closer to the beginning of the year.”

RESPONSE; Aaron did not lie, but understood the count began from the morrow after the seventh Sabbath and it was 50 days after the seventh Sabbath that Aaron said what he said concerning the CHAG/Pilgrim feast.
Also Brother Chuck, firstfruits means the first ripe fruits of your harvest whether it is the spring barley, summer wheat, or the first fruit of the fruit trees in the fall. END
quote:

#5. Nehemiah 13:15 said he saw men in Judah treading the “wine” press and bringing in sheaves on the Sabbath day…

But he doesn’t say this was anywhere near Pentecost, so it proves nothing.

RESPONSE; it proves that the wheat harvest comes after grapes are ripe. Sister Wendy said Larry e-mailed her some evidence that their is Scriptural harvest of wheat in the third month, If you could get them to furnish this evidence it would put the third month Pentecost back in the running as an option. End
quote:

#6. The wheat harvest must be at the year’s end/turning which happens June 21…

According to Ex.34:22, it is the “Feast of Ingathering” (Tabernacles, NOT Pentecost), that is observed at the year’s end/turning.

RESPONSE; it also mentions the feast of weeks alone with Tabernacles, they are both at the years turning/end. One turning is around June 21st, and another around Sept 21st. END

quote:

#7.The Holy Spirit through the Prophet Joel said that the Floors would be full of wheat and the “fats” would be over flowing with “wine” on the day that the Holy Spirit was poured out, which we know to be Pentecost. It is “IMPOSIABLE” to have fats full of “wine” in the 3rd month, which disproves Pentecost 50 days after unleavened bread. Joel 2:24-28

Arnold, you have your sequence of Feasts in Joel 2 incorrect. Notice:
Verse 1-11 is Trumpets – the Day of YAHWEH.
Verse 12-17 is Atonment – the Day of Fasting & repentence.
Verse 18-27 is Tabernacles – the ingathering of the corn, wine, oil, figs, and perhaps even some wheat. I believe the harvest blessings mentioned in this passage apply to all the harvests of the year, from that time onward. To demand that the wheat, wine, & oil of v24 are all harvested at the same time of year is the same logic that would demand that the “former” and “latter” rains of v23 occur at the same time.
Verse 28-29 is Pentecost. (note “AFTERWARD”, after all of the above)

RESPONSE; the Holy Spirit was poured out on the day of Pentecost and this was the time that the threshingfloors would be full of wheat and the fats overflowing with new wine. This is why they were accused of being drunk with new wine on the day of Pentecost. The grapes were ripe at that time and it had to be in the fourth month for grapes to be ripe. End

quote:

I could go on and on with Scriptures showing why the count begins 50 days AFTER the seventh Sabbath and not 50 days after the first Sabbath, but I challenge anyone to show one reason that the verse in Leviticus 23:16 should be understood 50 days after the first Sabbath or unleavened bread instead of 50 days “after” the seventh Sabbath, as Scripture says.

Chuck response; I have answered all your statements above, and repeat my “one reason” as previously stated: because Lev.23:15 plainly says so.

RESPONSE; the debate is over Leviticus 23/16 and how it should be interpreted, therefore it cannot be used as proof either way. I want someone to show an example supporting their interpretation of Leviticus 23/16 as to mean 50 days after unleavened bread instead of 50 days after the seventh Sabbath complete, as I have done.
Brother Arnold

Response; Brother Chuck, compare what I said the Scripture “TEACHES”, to what you said the Scripture “SAID”

The reason I believe that “ye shall number” 50 days “AFTER” the “seventh” Sabbath complete is because,
#1. The Scripture says to, in Leviticus 23:16.
#2. The ONLY wheat harvest Recorded in Scripture, is in the “summer” wheat harvest after the grapes are ripe, which is impossible for grapes to be ripe in the spring of the third month. Therefore if there is no recorded wheat harvest before the grapes are ripe, then Leviticus 23:16 must be understood to begin to number the 50 days “AFTER” the seventh Sabbath complete.

#3. All Scriptural wheat was planted in the first month and harvested in the fourth month, which is in perfect harmony with what our Saviour said in the book of John “say not ye there are yet four months “then” cometh harvest”. Winter wheat is 8 months then cometh the harvest. Wheat planted in the first month can be proven in the book of Exodus, where it teaches that all the herbs/green grass of the field were destroyed along with the barley and flax, but the wheat was not destroyed because it had not “grown up” the revised standard says it was late coming up. In other words it had been planted in the first month and was still in the dark ground and therefore escaped the hail. The Septuagint says that the hail destroyed all the green grass. Wheat is a green grass.
Had it been Winter wheat, the kind that is planted in the fall and reaped in the spring, it would have been destroyed along with the barley and other herbs/green grass of the field because it was almost ready to harvest also even if it was Summer wheat that was planted in the 1st month and had already came up when the hail hit, it would have been destroyed also.

#4. We have shown where Aaron the high priest proclaimed a CHAG/Pilgrim feast in the fourth month and it was exactly 50 days after the “seventh” Sabbath complete. I challenge anyone to show where there is a CHAG mentioned in the “third” month.

We have one mentioned in the “first” month and in the “FOURTH” month and in the “seventh” month but never do we have one mentioned in the third month, therefore the count cannot begin 50 days after unleavened bread, but 50 days after the seventh Sabbath counting from unleavened bread. 1st – - 4th – - 7th are CHAGs with two months between each.
Here’s what your count would look like, 1 – 3 – - – 7 and here’s what YHWH’s count looks like, 1 – - 4 – - 7 see how smooth it is with no bumps and skips, compared to man’s tradition.
His feasts are held three times in the year, spring, summer, and fall. “NOT” “spring”, “spring”, and fall.

Philo says in THE SPECIAL LAWS, IV (235) page 639 of my Yonge’s translation, says “for as the atmosphere is divided by an equal number of months into winter, and spring, and summer, and autumn, it complete the whole year by allotting three months to each season;”

And in THE SPECIAL LAWS, I, THE SIXTH FESTIVAL XXIX. (175)

“And there are many meanings intended by this offering of the first fruits. In the first place they are a memorial of Creator; secondly, they are a most just requital to be offered to him who is the real cause of all fertility; (175) and the sheaf of the first fruits is barley, calculated for the innocent and blameless use of the inferior animals; for since it is not consistent with holiness to offer first fruits of everything, since most things are made rather for pleasure than for any actually indispensable use, it is also not consistent with holiness to enjoy and partake of any thing which is given for food, without first giving thanks to that being to whom it is becoming and pious to offer them.
That portion of the food which was honoured with the second place, namely, barley, was ordered by the Law to be offered as first fruits; for the first honours were assigned to wheat, of which it has deferred the offering of the first fruits, as being more honourable, to a more suitable season.”

I believe a more suitable season is referring to summer, and the feasts are spaced out.

#5. Nehemiah 13:15 said he saw men in Judah treading the “wine” press and bringing in sheaves on the Sabbath day. This has to be wheat that was planted in the first month and reaped in the fourth month after the grapes were ripe (50 days after the seventh Sabbath). It would be impossible to be gathering grapes and bringing in sheaves of the Winter wheat, there is no Winter wheat mentioned any were in Scripture or any examples found in Scripture. What is it you don’t understand about that? No Scriptural spring wheat harvest, no Scriptural Pentecost, only tradition of men. I know there is Winter and summer wheat planted now days, but we are dealing with Scriptural wheat of that day.

#6. The wheat harvest must be the at the years end/turning which happens June 21, and well after the traditional Pentecost has taken place. They are keeping Pentecost before the year’s end of the turning of the year, on June 21. This is not Scriptural.

I could go on and on with Scriptures showing why the count begins 50 days AFTER the seventh Sabbath and not 50 days after the first Sabbath, but I challenge anyone to show one reason that the verse in Leviticus 23:16 should be understood 50 days after the first Sabbath or unleavened bread instead of 50 days “after” the seventh Sabbath. The Scripture says prove all things and nature will not lie.

Brother Arnold

“HISTORY”

We will be Judged by what the scripture teaches and NOT what the Jews or any origination teaches.

Philo and nature proves Pentecost in the fourth month which ends the Pentecost controversy.

The Pentecost controversy had been raging for years and now I will show positive proof from nature and Philo the correct timing for Pentecost.

Philo was a prominent Jew that lived at the same time our Saviour did and his writings of how things were done at that time, will solve many ministers concerning Pentecost.

There are two types of wheat which are grown in the world today, one is Winter wheat which is sown in the fall and reaped in the spring and the other is summer wheat which is sown in the spring and reaped in the summer. The summer wheat takes four months to harvest, from the time the seed is sown to harvest and Winter wheat is seven to eight months from the time the seed is sown to harvest. The question is which wheat is the Pentecost wheat??? Will the real Pentecost weeks stand up.

There is a scripture in Leviticus 23:16 that has the possibility of two interpretations, one is to number ONE day after the seventh Sabbath complete and the other is to number 50 days “after” the seventh Sabbath complete, before bringing the new meat offering to YHWH.

Numbering 50 days from the wave sheaf will still be in the springtime, a few weeks after the springtime barley harvest and demands a first fruit from Winter wheat.

Numbering 50 days “after” the seventh Sabbath complete will be in the summertime and demands a first fruit from summer wheat.

Philo speaks of a wheat harvest in the low lands of Egypt that was used for Pentecost and it took place in the middle of spring which would be around May 6th and the reason was BECAUSE the fruit had ripened in the low lands and was being brought in. The wheat ripened about a month or so earlier in the low lands of Egypt then it did in the high lands of Egypt therefore the summer wheat was harvested in the middle of spring and here is the quote from Colson’s translation of Philo under THE SPECIAL LAWS, 1 – (183) and it reads,

“In the middle of the spring comes the corn harvest. At this season thank offerings are brought for the low lands BECAUSE they have borne fruit in full and the “SUMMER” crops are being gathered in”

Philo calls them summer crops even though in the low lands they are harvested in the middle of spring. It is equivalent to our saying, “in the low lands of South Georgia and Florida the summer crop is ripe/summer fruit/wheat, in the middle of spring”. It would be about a month earlier than middle or North Georgia. Remember also what Josephus said concerning the wheat harvest being in the summertime when Sampson went in the time of wheat harvest to visit his wife.

You might ask how is this important and how does it prove the Pentecost wheat is in the fourth month?

The middle of spring is May 6th when the Pentecost wheat is ripe in the lower lands of Egypt, this means that in the high lands of Egypt the wheat would be ripe a month or so later around June 6, which is the traditional spring Pentecost and not enough time to harvest, thrash and ground the wheat into flower in time to bring to wave loaves out of their houses. Lev:23:17.

Someone might say they would have enough time to do it. Even if they did have enough time in the high lands of Egypt, it would be impossible for Israel to have a first fruit wheat harvest before May 6th BECAUSE there wheat ripens a month or so “after” the wheat in Egypt, which would be around July 6th, well past the time of the traditional Pentecost in the third month, but just in time for Pentecost in the fourth month, 50 days after the seventh Sabbath complete.

Let me give you more evidence to support the understanding of Leviticus 23:16 to be understood as to number 50 days after the seventh Sabbath complete instead of numbering one day after the seventh Sabbath complete, which puts Pentecost at the end of the fourth month instead of the traditional beginning of the third month Pentecost.

It is found in THE SPECIAL LAWS, 11 Chapter 28, (158) and Philo is speaking about the barley harvest being the springtime feast and as a reminder of the creation of the world. Here is the quote:

“ the springtime feast, as I have laid down, is a reminder of the creation of the world”

Now I will show you in the next Chapter, chapter 29, (176) where Philo is still speaking of the barley and he adds how the Law postpones the wheat harvest to a more suitable SEASON in the future. Here is the quote:

“And therefore the Law ordained that the first fruit offering should be made of barley, a species of grain regarded as holding the second place in value as food. For wheat holds the first place and as the first fruit of this has greater distinction, the LAW postponed it to a more suitable SEASON in the future. It does not anticipate matters, but puts it in storage for the time being, so that the various thank offerings may be adjusted to their appointed dates as they recur”. (50 days after the seventh Sabbath would put it out of the spring season and into the summer season which is more suitable season.) (Leviticus 23)

Philo says in THE SPECIAL LAWS, IV (235) page 639 of my Yonge’s translation, says “for as the atmosphere is divided by an equal number of months into winter, and spring, and summer, and autumn, it complete the whole year by allotting three months to each season;”

It would be more suitable for the seasonal feasts to look like this, 1 – - 4 – - 7 instead of like this, 1 – 3 – - – 7

See how smooth it is with no bumps and skips, compared to man’s tradition.

He said also in chapter 28 “the springtime is a reminder of the creation of the world” and in chapter 29 says that the wheat is postponed to “another” season (summer) by the Law.
His feasts are held three times in the year, spring, summer, and fall. Not “spring”, “spring”, and fall. Everyone of them, occur around the turning of the year, after March 21, spring barley harvest, after June 21, summer wheat harvest and around September 21, fall harvest. Remember the great lights of Genesis 1:14 were for the appointments of YHWH, and these three feasts are appointments and it takes both the sun and the moon to find them.

I found another scripture supporting the fourth month harvest and it tells how that Nebuchadrezzar conquered Jerusalem in the fourth month on the ninth day of the month in Jeremiah 39:2.

In verse 10, tells how he left the poor people which had nothing in the land of Judah and gave them vineyards and fields at the same time.

Jeremiah 40:7 tells how he made this man governor of the men and women and children and the poor the land of them that were not carried away to Babylon; and in verse 10 they were told to gather ye wine, and summer fruit, and oil, and put them in your vessels, and dwell in your cities that ye have taken”. verse 12 says “ even all the Jews returned out of all places whether they were driven and came to land of Judah, to Gedaliah, unto Mizpah, and gathered wine and summer fruit very much.

To show there were no breaks Chapter 41:1 says that “it came to pass in the seventh month”
When you read Chapter 39 you will see that the harvest was in the fourth month and not in the third month, same as in Nehemiah Chapter 13:15 where Nehemiah
Observed men treading the wine press and bringing in sheaves/wheat on the Sabbath day. In both cases they were gathering wine and summer fruit (wheat) the spring wheat is gone when the wine and summer fruit/wheat are gathered.

I am still waiting for one scripture for a harvest in third month.

Brother Arnold

I believe the count to Pentecost will prove or disapprove lunar Sabbaths, or solar Sabbaths. For us to better understand how that they counted Pentecost, let us go to the witnesses that lived at the time of our Saviour, to see how it was done.

I intend to show that the 50th day count to Pentecost begins on the 50th day after the seventh Sabbath, and the 50th day after the FIRST Sabbath is not Pentecost. I will give you plain instructions from the men that lived at that time, where they show that the 50 days is counted from the day “after” the seventh Sabbath complete.

Quoting from Philo page 704, chapter eight (65)

“(65) In the first place, these men assemble at the end of seven weeks, venerating not only the simple week of seven days, but also its multiplied power, for they know it to be pure and always virgin; and it is “a “prelude” and a kind of “forefeast” of the greatest feast, which is assigned to the number fifty,” the most holy and natural of numbers, being compounded of the power of the right-angled triangle, which is the principle of the origination and condition of the whole.”

I will prove that this “prelude” and a kind of “forfeast” is speaking of the morrow “after” the seventh sabbaths complete, not Pentecost which takes place 50 days from it. This forfeast was not Pentecost it is the feast that people are keeping for Pentecost today but in our Saviour’s time it was a prelude to the greatest feast/Pentecost which took place 50 days from their.

Let’s go to Philo , page 584 under The Special Laws11 Chapter 30 (176)

“THE SEVENTH FESTIVAL
XXX. (176) The solemn assembly on the occasion of the festival of the sheaf having such great privileges, is the “prelude” to another festival of still “greater importance”; for from “this day” the fiftieth day is reckoned, making up the sacred number of seven sevens, with the addition of a “unit” as a seal to the whole; and this festival, being that of the first fruits of the corn, has derived its name of pentecost from the number of fifty,”

Now as I have stated earlier in another post, that this is referring to the 16th, when the wave sheaf is offered, and is a prelude to another festival , which takes place on the morrow after the 7th Sabbath, and is of greater importance than this 16th. He is not talking about the 50th day of Pentecost here, for ever one know that Pentecost is “greater” than the 16th, he is speaking of the morrow after the 7th Sabbath, which is also a 16th when the numbering to the 50 day begins and it is also a prelude to Pentecost, same as the 16th feast was a prelude to another 16th on the morrow after the seventh Sabbath, and we have record where Philo speaks of men keeping this second 16th feast as a prelude and kind of forfeast to the GREATEST FEAST i.e. Pentecost in other words this second 16th feast was greater than the first 16th feast that it was not the GREATEST feast/Pentecost which took place 50 days later.

It says from “this day” i.e. the 50th day, the 50th day is reckoned, making the sacred number of seven sevens, with the addition of a “unit” as a seal to whole.

Now to prove my interpretation of Philo is correct, I will let Philo interpret Philo, the same as I let Scripture interpret Scripture.

I will now quote from Colson’s Translation of Philo to prove what I am saying is correct. Quoting from the special Laws,11 Chapter 30,

“The festival of the sheaf, which has all these grounds of precedence, indicated in the Law, is also in fact, anticipatory of another “greater feast” (i.e. the morrow after the seventh Sabbath). For it is “from it” (the morrow after the 7th Sabbath) that the 50th day is reckoned, by counting seven sevens, which are then “crowned” with the “sacred number” by the monad, which is spent in corporal image of YHWH,”

There you have it, the seven sevens are “crowned” with the “sacred number” i.e. 50. The Word monad is translated “unit”, in Young’s translation, which I say the unit is 50, not one. Although one can be a unit, as well as 7 can, we will let Philo interpret Philo to find out what the unit is here. It clearly states that the seven sevens are crowned with the “sacred number” so I must prove that the “sacred number”, or unit, spoken of here is 50, which will prove or disapprove my point.

I will quote more from Philo in Moses 11 volume six, pg. 489, (80) it says, “there will be left the most “sacred number”, 50, the square of the sides of the ripe angled triangle, the original source from which the universe brings.”

According to Philo, the most “sacred number” is 50, and this is the “sacred number” 50 that was added to the seven sevens, called Pentecost, after the number 50. Remember seven sevens is only 49, and that the end of the 49, or seventh Sabbath, is the morrow after, and it is from this day, the 50th day is numbered. The morrow after the 7th Sabbath, is the feast of greater importance than the 16th that Philo spoke of because it is a prelude or kind of for feast to the GREATEST feast i.e. Pentecost. Same as the 16th was a prelude to the morrow after the seventh Sabbath.

Just in case you still are unsure that the “sacred number” that is referred to here, is 50, I will quote a few more proves from Philo.

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS ON GENESIS, II
“the “perfect number fifty” is composed of these four triangles linked together, one, three, six, ten; and again of these four equal quadrangles also united together, one, four, nine, sixteen; therefore these triangles when collected together make twenty; and the quadrangles make thirty; and twenty and thirty added together make fifty.
Philo Judaeus, The Works of Philo, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems)
1997.

“But if the triangle and the quadrangle are added together, they make a heptangular figure: so that it is contained by its virtue in the number of fifty, “that divine and holy number;”

ON THE LIFE OF MOSES, I
Philo Judaeus, The Works of Philo, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems) 1997.

(80) And if any were inclined to count those five pillars of the outer vestibule in the open air separately, as being in the outer court as it was called, there will then be left that most holy number of fifty, being the power of a rectangular triangle, which is the foundation of the creation of the universe, and is here entirely completed by the pillars inside the tabernacle;
Philo Judaeus, The Works of Philo, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems) 1997.